Safety involves doing everything possible to prevent cross traffic collisions, so there's no reason to have short yellows unless the cities are more worried about collecting revenue and less worried about safety.
The trouble is that cities contract with camera MFGs instead of installing cameras independently. And by the time the Camera MFGs get their cut, the cameras are too expensive unless the light timing is changed to cause more gotchas. The city can then take the revenue collected and pay off the camera MFG as well as enhance its own coffers.
Those who truly concerned with safety should expect appropriate yellow timing, even if they also want cameras. And if any cameras are installed, they should be purchased outright, and not leased and paid for through ticket revenue, which creates an incentive for the camera MFG to set them up for revenue and not for safety.
Posted by Jeff B. at November 25, 2009 10:50 AMPosted by Daniel at November 25, 2009 12:44 PM
BUT, who cares?
Don't run red lights. That's always been illegal. And it's always been a stupid and dangerous thing to do.
I don't care what they charge for running a red light because I DON'T DO IT.
Posted by Mickymse at November 25, 2009 01:32 PMThis is a perfect example of what is wrong with this country now: Nobody cares unless it effects them directly. What a juvenile view. "I don't care if Kelo took his house, they didn't take mine, what do I care?."
Well, Mickey, sooner or later they are going to get around to grabbing or denying something that YOU like and then what? Do we care? Well maybe we won't when your time comes and then how will you feel about it?
"When they came for the Catholics I didn't say anything because I wasn't Catholic . . . and then when they came for me there wasn't anybody left."
Posted by G Jiggy at November 25, 2009 04:23 PMYou obviously have no experience at these lights. It isn't about not running red lights. It's about not being able not to.
When you approach an intersection, there is a point of no return after which you are unable to safely stop without entering the intersection. A yellow light must be timed to allow the driver who has reached that point of no-return to safely pass thru the intersection before the light turns red. These intersections specifically and purposely are timed to not allow complete passage.
The poor unfortunate driver who approaches at just the wrong time will get nailed with a ticket, or will slam on his/her brakes and skid to a stop, possibly getting rear ended. And yes, there are stats that show such intersections have higher than normal accident rates.
Posted by Seabecker at November 25, 2009 08:41 PM35mph=56fps which is almost 4 seconds to stop. To add a second of reaction time, the time to stop is 5 seconds.
If you don't stop, you will travel 280' in the same 5 seconds. A 3-lane each way intersection is about 132' wide. If you are closer than 148' to the intersection when you see yellow, you won't make it thru in 5 seconds. And if you do decide to stop, with a 56' reaction distance you'll need to brake 92' from the intersection - a sportier deceleration than was noted above.
But guess what? - they don't even give you 5 seconds. You'll get about 3 seconds.
Posted by Seabecker at November 25, 2009 09:16 PMNice. Best analysis I have seen yet. Man this infuriates me because the choice is slamming on the breaks causing undue stress on the vehicle, passengers and drivers behind, or gunning it to make the poorly timed lights. Either choice is bad.
This is what happens when unscrupulous local governments see $$$.
Posted by Jeff B. at November 25, 2009 09:27 PM- You don't have to get through the intersection before the light turns red, just enter it.
- If the light turns yellow, you don't have to stop before it turns red. You just have to stop before you reach the intersection. If you're so close to the intersection that you can barely stop before the red, then by not slowing down you can easily make it into the intersection before the red.
- If you're approaching a stale green light at 35mph, you should slow down and be prepared for the light to turn yellow at any moment.
Having said all that, I do agree that 3 seconds is too short for a yellow at 35mph. But do you have any evidence of 35mph roads with 3-second yellows?
Posted by Bruce at November 25, 2009 10:19 PMAccident rate is as high if not higher now. I have been put in near accident situation on my bike several times, with drivers stopping short because the light changed to yellow while they were in the that decision zone.
How are you suppose to know the green is stale the length of the green is programmed to change at different times of the day.
Posted by gpat at November 26, 2009 05:15 AMAre you SURE?
I know it's the law, but if a police officer would not ticket you for it, I don't see how people can justify some automated system doing it with less accountability.
Posted by jvon at November 26, 2009 09:52 AMI find myself in such fear of getting an unwarranted ticket that I approach a GREEN light going less than half the speed limit just so I don't get into the trap of being halfway through the intersection. Ask me if I care that I'm slowing traffic and angering drivers. So much for the safety factor as I creep through Auburn.
Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold at November 26, 2009 10:57 AMYellow lights have always meant that you should stop if able. But that implies a reasonable length.
I have observed many cameras and have seen the flashes as cars are most of the way through. I regularly drive thru the one in Renton at Rainier/Grady. If the crosswalk light does not still say walk in my direction, I accelerate as I go thru.
I also regularly observe the previously noted camera by Olympic College in Bremerton. That is an absurdly short yellow light!
Posted by Seabecker at November 26, 2009 11:36 AMThe traffic cameras photograph the REAR of the vehicle (public privacy laws restrict photographs of the front); as such, the driver cannot be identified.
Tickets are mailed to the registered owner, but moving infractions are only for the driver, not the owner. As such, you can usually challenge the ticket on the basis that it cannot be shown you were driving the vehicle.
I know one individual who racked up 4 of these photo tickets within a 9 month period in Lakewood, and got every single one tossed this very way - prove he was driving. Since it could not be proven, the ticket was tossed out.
Posted by Shanghai Dan at November 26, 2009 11:51 AMCameras photograph the front and the back. There is even video for the city to determine if you actually ran the light or not in case the system misfires.
A bunch of older folks (70+) with whom I volunteer have been ticketed. That's disgraceful
Are old people incapable of breaking the law?
Posted by John Jensen at November 26, 2009 12:39 PMWhen's the last time you've been been to Seattle? Why does any of this concern you? Go away.
Posted by John Jensen at November 26, 2009 01:48 PMFortunately, it's easy to fix: just amend the law to make the cap more specific. One wonders, though, if there are any legislators willing to take the heat from the mayors and city council members in their district and sponsor such a bill.
that is not quite right, there is a recommendation that most states subscribe to that indicates yellow lights should be from 3 to 6 long. If I could refind the link I would have put it in here.
Posted by Ron K at November 26, 2009 09:24 PMDaniel, there is no "standard" time for yellow lights, you are wrong. They depends on speeds and conditions. You have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that yellow-light timing is below four seconds for intersections with red-light cameras. Yellow lights were optimized throughout downtown to get more throughput and increase the all-red time so cars could clear intersections at busy downtown streets.
You can admit your mistake any time now...
Posted by Shanghai Dan at November 26, 2009 11:15 PMI'd raise the fines if it was up to me.
Posted by JoeBandMember at November 27, 2009 03:26 PMI totally agree with Westneat, and quite a few people here, that the tickets shouldn't be nearly so expensive.
But my reason is different. This is a classic pricing problem. Price low, sell more. These cameras will become more successful in the long run so there can be more of them and they'll create a lot less blowback like what's going on at SoundPolitics here if the prices are lower and people don't get so pissed off.
Then the cameras can do their job and try to civilize the people who drive cars in this area so I might have a chance to live to a ripe old age.
I't about self preservation: but I guess since this is SP I'm probably the only one who drives a smashable little car.
Best
new left conservative
Posted by new left conservative at November 28, 2009 10:52 PMThe entire problem with these threads has been a distinct lack of evidence. Now that there is finally some evidence, you can ask "is 3.5 seconds too low?" I don't think it is. It's consistent with operation at these speeds. The timing is standard for lights across Seattle, even those without red light cameras. The argument is that timing was reduced for red light cameras. There is no evidence that this occurred and there is no evidence that intersections without cameras have different timing.
The substantial point is that you wanted to make your conclusion without any evidence. That shows you care very little about what is truthful and real, and more about your resentment of government.
Posted by John Jensen at November 30, 2009 09:30 AMThen I assume you now rescind your words above, since your position has been shown to be wrong?
Posted by Shanghai Dan at November 30, 2009 03:29 PMThere is nothing to be shown "wrong." I asked for evidence from the beginning and nearly two weeks later someone finally took out a stopwatch to show that the city had correctly articulated its yellow-light timing to be three-point-five seconds.
Posted by John Jensen at November 30, 2009 07:25 PMI was correct. Daniel had absolutely no evidence of his claim.
Posted by John Jensen at December 1, 2009 10:17 AMNaked emperors don't go too far, John...
Posted by Shanghai Dan at December 1, 2009 06:57 PM