Comment on Entry: Gregoire pits her tax hikes against Idaho, authored by Ron Hebron
1. Gee, maybe it is time for her to call 1-800-waaaaah!As i see it she did this to herself and is trying to take citizenry with her!!The governor in Idaho has a point!!

Posted by Laurie at March 10, 2010 08:23 AM
2. Nothing wrong with a little 'competition' to possibly give a wake-up call to those who may be asleep at the switch. GOoooooooo Idaho! :)

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 08:38 AM
3. Hey Chrissy, WA also ranks quite high in business closures. Hmmm
Largest employers headquarters (public and privately owned) relocated OUT of WA. If she can't keep them here, how will she get them here?

Posted by PC at March 10, 2010 08:41 AM
4. Smacks of a potential song (listening Pudge?)...'how you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Boise'. :)

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 08:43 AM
5. Huh? Since Washington's taxes are already lower than Idaho's (http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxburdens.html), why would "lowering taxes so you can compete with your competitors - other states" make sense? I know your ideology is that any tax level is too high, but what does this have to do with competing with Idaho?

Posted by Bruce at March 10, 2010 08:44 AM
6. Business has to plan for the future. Perhaps the future looks better/more stable, in Idaho than in Washington. I do not own a business. Just hypothesizing.

Posted by Gary at March 10, 2010 09:27 AM
7. Right. Employers (such as Boeing) are relocating operations to places like Chicago and South Carolina because of the positive business climate in Washington state.
Liberals love to claim the playing field is level. That, heck, doing business in one state is the same as doing business in another state. This is the kind of propaganda they learn from leftist propaganda seminars. Not everyone pays B & O taxes or L & I taxes (certainly not retirees).

Posted by Attila at March 10, 2010 09:29 AM
8. Queen: "We're now the second best state in the country..." Hmmm... That really swayed Boeing on the 787 line, huh? Who's she trying to fool?

This state's suffocating B&O (on gross!), unemployment, and now death taxes are business killers. All these aggregate rankings factor in 'quality of life' and 'technology', two components we excel in, to counteract horrible tax and regulatory policy ratings.

She does not cite the 'ranked second' reference, best I could find is 9th, or 16th, or worse, depending upon methodology.

Posted by yaddacubed at March 10, 2010 09:29 AM
9. So her plan is to keep raising taxes until business leave? By then it is too late. Once they are gone they don't come back unless there is a real good reason.

Posted by Vince at March 10, 2010 09:31 AM
10. Ah yes, the Forbes ranking. I will be sure to share that with my fellow small business owners to cheer them up. Washington may be good for certain businesses like Big Software that can buy off their representatives, but sucks for small family owned operations.

Hey Chris, how does Idaho's corporate tax compare with Washington's B&O tax? Talk about 'unfair'!

Posted by danno at March 10, 2010 09:34 AM
11. Google it...it's there; Dave Ross is presently discussing on his show (KIRO-FM, 97.3). Forbes and various ingredients make up the final results.
You know 'Forbes', that bastion of liberal accumen. :)

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 09:34 AM
12. 10 Best States for Small Businesses, ranks Washington 5th ! [So Dakota = 1st]

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 09:39 AM
13. If Washington is better for business than Idaho, then we don't have anything to worry about, do we?
Business isn't stupid. It can make up its own mind about what's best for it, and it will do so regardless of what Christine says, or what we say.

Posted by Gary at March 10, 2010 09:39 AM
14. Let's do the math so even our liberal friends can grasp this, using MY company as an example. I understand this may be confusing for touchy feely types because it is based on reality, not a web site link. WA B O tax 1.5% Revenue - last year we enjoyed roughly $10,000,000 in revenue x .015 = $150,000 now lets look at a few hundred miles away, Idaho has a corp. tax of 7.6% of PROFIT, for us, last year $750,000 x .076 = $57,000. If someone came up to you and offered 100 grand a year if you move 300 miles what would you say??? "No thanks" I like living in blind utopia. This example does not even address L & I rates, Unemployment rates etc. We don't need to be in Washington, we can function anywhere with an employment base. It is MY decision to locate my company, and with that decision goes over 100 jobs. How many people like me are looking at the same reality? Each being hundreds of jobs? Now where are you going to work Bruce?

Posted by seethelight at March 10, 2010 09:52 AM
15. I'd take a 7.6% corporate tax rate over a 1.5% B&O tax. I would have paid lower taxes with the corporate tax versus the B&O tax. Earning a 10% before taxes means that 1.5% B&O tax is equivalent to a 15% corporate tax rate. Of course, now I pay 0% in my jurisdiction...

Business will work around higher taxes; business needs STABILITY in the rules and taxation, which Washington simply doesn't have, nor ever will have by design.

For example, consider the resale certificate. Anyone who sells anything in the State is aware of this form. It allows you to buy wholesale product and not pay sales tax, so that only the final transaction is taxed. However, acceptance of those forms is at the will and sole-discretion of the State, and if the State decides the form was fraudulently filled out, the SELLER gets to pay the taxes, not the buyer who provided the bad form.

So you can accept such forms and hope things don't go awry, or not accept resale certs and lose business because your product costs 8-10% more.

L&I or UI increases? Random and capricious, as far as I can tell. B&O classification? Heck, I got a signed letter from the DOR when setting up my business with an official judgment that I was a manufacturer (we designed, built, and sold our product). Seven years later the new DOR regulations decided that the value was added not at manufacturing but at designing meaning I owed 5 years (statute of limitations) of B&O taxes as a service - not manufacturing - company.

Rezoning? My cabinet maker originally was zoned commercial, but over time the neighborhood around him built up (McMansions) and he was grandfathered in to a now residential zone. And he was prohibited by the State from expanding his operations (a 12,000 square foot shop on 3 acres of land), so he decided to retire early and liquidate his equipment rather than handing it down to his son (who could not buy the business because it would be rezoned on sale), putting me and dozens of other clients in a bind.

Hey, have ONE good month and you're now on a monthly B&O and taxation report schedule, even if your annual receipts would only justify annual or quarterly. Good luck getting the lower frequency of reporting - once you move up, you're up. Tough.

Sales tax? Washington is higher. Income tax? Yeah, ID has an income tax - which, of course, is deductible dollar-for-dollar from Federal income tax meaning you pay the same dollars just to two masters.

And let's not forget the biggest issue: minimum wage. We're the highest in the nation, meaning that - for a manufacturer paying L&I and UI rates as a manufacturer - a completely entry-level minimum-wage worker is going to cost you somewhere beyond $12.00 per hour.

And let's not forget the State's role in destroying our health insurance market, the minimum required coverages, the lack of competition (thank you Deborah Senn!), etc...

Posted by Shanghai Dan at March 10, 2010 09:56 AM
16. So, when are you moving? :) {bet, not any time soon)

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 10:02 AM
17. Duffman, you don't think this is serious? Do you want the producers to leave? Do you want lower state revenues?


Posted by Gary at March 10, 2010 10:17 AM
18. Duffman,

I did...:) I come back to Edmonds to visit family and friends and to act as a "hub" for visiting US clients around the nation. I'll send you photos from my rubber tree farm in Thailand (I'll be there in a week), or my apartment in Shanghai if you like.

I used to have a manufacturing business in Lynnwood, WA (Alderwood Business Park, behind the Sugar Shack cafe) and after getting jerked around hard for a year, I shut down, found jobs for my employees, and moved overseas.

I know more than a few that have done the same thing... Either relocating to other States or other nations. Small business is considered a nuisance by the State, and small business is leaving.

Posted by Shanghai Dan at March 10, 2010 10:22 AM
19. #17 & #18, Yes I think it 'could' be serious if unchecked but it ain't happening yet.
Suppose it depends on the business...I'm retired (sort of) but I've a son with a small business doing (indirectly) work for BA and others. His business does not have any problems dealing with taxation, regulations, etc ...so, guess it must have to do with type of business.

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 10:29 AM
20. Duffman, what will you propose we do when it does happen? What will you propose we do the next time the state comes up short, raise taxes again?

Dan just told you that it's happening. And hell, look at Boeing.


Posted by Gary at March 10, 2010 10:40 AM
21. What I will do, is what I've done all along when a deal goes sour...look around for a better deal (spelled 'opportunity'), if in fact I judge it to be such, like Shanghai - I will make the move. Isn't that what free opportunity is all about. I've enjoyed a great life here in Washington (IMO, the greatest place on the face of this earth...and I HAVE witnessed many others). Will I continue to feel that way?? We'll see. :)

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 11:29 AM
22. A snippet from the Washington Policy Center:

Some other statistics that the U.S. News and World Report study skipped over in the SBEC report:
-Washington ranked 44th in "State Rankings of Adjusted Unemployment Taxes"
-We ranked 45th in "State Rankings of Number of Health Insurance Mandates"
-Washington ranked 49th in "State Rankings of Workers' Compensation Benefits Per $100 of Covered Wages"
-45th in "State Rankings of State Gas Taxes"
-40th in "State Rankings of Per Capita State and Local Government Expenditures 2005-2006"
-39th in "State Rankings of Highway Cost Effectiveness, 2006"

Posted by yaddacubed at March 10, 2010 01:14 PM
23. Sure, some might choose to bite the bullet and leave for Idaho, Texas, or Nevada but I'd think things would have to get pretty bad to justify a wholesale relocation.

The point people seem to be missing is that this state needs to attract new businesses in order to grow its economy and dig out of the hole we're currently in.

So my question is, "Why would any business choose to relocate here with a government that has proven itself hell bent on beating up businesses for tax revenue?"

Posted by Smoley at March 10, 2010 01:26 PM
24. Christine, quit doing the bidding of special interest groups that run Olympia and start listening to the people. They don't want your tax increases and attacks on small and large business.

Posted by Michele at March 10, 2010 01:53 PM
25. The state decided those standard forms for resale tax exemption were not good enough.

Now you have to request a special reseller permit from the state. It is the responsibility of the vendor to go online and verify those certificates.

Royal pain in the wazoo.

Posted by Vince at March 10, 2010 02:12 PM
26. ...and I just hope that those of you who purchase 'out of state' (tax-free) are picking up your declaration forms and paying the proper compensating 'use tax' on the value of those materials when you bring them into our State.
Undoubtedly you ARE doing this, are you not?

Posted by Duffman at March 10, 2010 02:22 PM
27. You work for the state, Duffman?

Posted by Gary at March 10, 2010 02:45 PM
28. So..can someone here explain to me why Idaho (6% state sales tax, 7.8% income tax) is somehow superior to Washington (8.6% sales tax, NO income tax). Even with assuming a 10% sales tax for King County, the math is very much in favor of WA for lower taxes..unless you're poor.

So..for the vast majority of us worker bees, Washginton is way lower in taxes.

For small business owners, unless you're in a very low margin business (seethelight, your math shows a 7.5% margin...seems very low). And even in your example, I'm sure you are incorporated? and you pay yourself a salary? One would assume a decent one? Not having to pay that 7.6% tax on your income would certainly be nice, no?
Remember, Idaho will tax not only your corporate profits, but also your income.

Posted by Proteus at March 10, 2010 03:32 PM
29. the WA legislature is trying to put an income tax in place. Aren't they trying to put it on the ballot? Lameness

Posted by Michele at March 10, 2010 07:32 PM
30. Proteus,

Typical businesses make around a 10% profit on receipts; some make considerably less (grocery and other commodity sales) some make a little higher (certain high-tech fields). If you're making about the average return on receipts, then a B&O tax of 1.5% would be equivalent to a 15% corporate tax rate.

And of course our sales tax is considerably higher, and income tax paid to a State is deductible from federal income tax, making it "null" in terms of actual tax dollars out of pocket.

Posted by Shanghai Dan at March 10, 2010 09:04 PM
31. Let's not forget about what happens to your company when you die. That's a taxapalooza.
Oh, it's not really your company. Those taxes you paid while building the company were like "mob insurance".

Posted by PC at March 10, 2010 11:30 PM
32. Fair enough..sounds like it would be much better to have taxes based on profits, rather than raw revenue. That being said, B&O really only seems to affect small business owners, and even then, they can compensate by raising prices 1%. Still way better than a 7.6% income tax! (for the majority of us who work for corporations, this is a better deal).

Also, note that you CAN deduct sales tax from federal income tax...

Posted by Proteus at March 11, 2010 11:11 AM
33. @PC
So..correct me if I'm wrong, but the estate tax is repealed this year? And even last year, it only affected estates over $2M (state) or $3.5M (federal)? So the vast majority of small business owners and farms are completely exempt? And there are many, many different ways to get around it?

What am I missing here? Is this board just full of multimillionaires?

Posted by Proteus at March 11, 2010 11:25 AM
34. No man or woman is worth your tears, and the one who is, won't make you cry

Posted by jordan shoes at March 11, 2010 04:35 PM
35. Hi Proteus,

Pretty much every business in the State of Washington pays B&O tax. And if you earn a typical 10% your company pays more with B&O than you would with corporate tax.

As far as the sales tax deduction, assume you have 1 exemption and you earned $40,000, with an AGI of $20,000. You get to deduct $550 from your Federal Tax. But if you paid that 7.6% State income tax you would get to deduct $1520 in State income taxes AND that $550 in sales tax deductions, for a total reduction in your tax load of $1520.

Big difference, eh?

Posted by Shanghai Dan at March 11, 2010 08:38 PM
36. Dan, I don't think that's correct. I believe you get to deduct either your state income taxes OR your sales taxes, whichever is higher.

Posted by Palouse at March 12, 2010 09:10 AM
37. Hi Palouse,

That may be, not living in such a State I'm not sure. But if it's either/or, then you're better off with an income tax than a sales tax - greater deduction for a lower overall tax load!

Posted by Shanghai Dan at March 12, 2010 03:43 PM
38. Exactly the opposite. For most wage earners, especially the top 20% ($90k+/year), an income tax is much worse than a sales tax. For average American families in the lower 80% of income ($90k/year and below), then the sales tax hurts them more.

Example:
Married professional couple making $200k AGI (taxable income, after deductions)
Fica+Social+Medicare=~30% = $60k
Idaho state income tax = 7.6% = $15k.
WA sales tax (deductable, per IRS table) = 3389
Idaho sales tax (deductable, per IRS table) = 2196

Not sure how the ridiculous Idaho income tax counters the $1k difference in sales tax....

Posted by Proteus at March 13, 2010 05:58 AM
39. Otter is a plain talker. Gregoire is an elitist number-cruncher.

Posted by Big Bear at March 17, 2010 04:34 PM
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