I like the idea of forcing a vote on Obama's proposal. See how many Dems really vote for it.
Posted by the Obama recession at December 7, 2012 08:23 AMSEE?!??!! These people are calling themselves Democrats because Democrats are way more awesome at messaging than Republicans, and so these people believe, consciously or subconsciously, that it's just BETTER to be Democrat.Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 10:42 AM
EXCEPT THAT THEY AREN'T.
Which is why ballots should include platforms, and no names. If people had the slightest clue what they were actually supporting, instead of just voting for the celebrity factor, this country might have half a chance at electing some people with Actual Brains.
GAWD.
I applaud your optimism.
Every time I or anyone I've known has written Senator Murray, it's taken a month or more to receive a generic, off-topic form letter.
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 11:25 AMCut taxes all the way to 0% of income (or property value and so on), and no government revenue comes in. Raise them all the way to 100%, and, again, no government revenue comes in. There is a curve that describes the relationship of tax rates and revenue. That curve is not just a function of rates, though; many other factors in the economy influence its shape. And, of course, tax rates not only factor in government revenue but also in economic growth, amongst other things.
There can't be a simple rule "always cut taxes" or "always raise taxes". Both lead to no government at all, and not even libertarians believe in that.
I realize that Murray's votes in these cases was most likely 100% dependent on who the President was, not on my points above, so this is all probably off-topic!
- MM
Posted by Moderate Man at December 7, 2012 11:55 AMIt' may be a difficult fact for the GOP to accept, but its a fact and it's incumbent on them (Boehner, et.al.) to do something about the messaging or risk being perceived as being to blame.
My suggestion - Let the tax rates increase - if they don't like i or are afraid of repurcussions, then vote present. Then come back and negotiate spending cuts, entitlement reform and the debt ceiling. By dong this, they would improve politically which will overshadow a policy letdown.
Why do the Republicans in congress fail to challenge the President and call his bluff or call him on his lies ? I can't come up with a plausible answer, but this is an important aspect of messaging. As long as they fail to challenge Obama directly in public, they will continue to lose politically.
Posted by KDS at December 7, 2012 12:09 PMIt must be hard being a Conservative when any thought you have contradicts the thought you just had.
Posted by Lionel Hutz Esq. at December 7, 2012 12:13 PMIn the meantime Obama wants unlimited credit authority (we're already borrowing 46 cents of every dollar), he wants another stimulus and he refuses to name cuts.
Connect to dots to raising taxes on YOU.
Connect to dots to raising taxes on YOU.
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 12:18 PM
You are on the losing side, Rags ! The public wants tax rate increases for the rich. Let them raise taxes, but not without itemized spending cuts that are at least a 4:1 ratio of cuts/revenue increases. Why are Republicans being so inept at messaging ? It is more important that they preserve spending cut and address entitlement reforms. The Democrat fingerprints are all over tax increases. BTW, Back in June 2011, Obama stated that revenue increases by closing loopholes without tax rate increases would produce $120 billion. Why no Republican bringa that up is stoopid !!
Posted by KDS at December 7, 2012 12:26 PMIs it fair that a person making $20,000 a year pays, percentagewise of income, far more in federal excise taxes that a person earningf over $250,000 a year?
Posted by dorky dorkman at December 7, 2012 12:26 PMNo, I don't think Patty Murray understands very much at all. I have the opinion that she's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Posted by Politically Incorrect at December 7, 2012 12:32 PMMoney is fungible. The US Goverment takes in all sorts of income and spends it all and then borrows more. A dollar from a person paying into Social Security is spent the same way a dollar is from income tax or excise tax. There is no difference. There is no obligation the government has to repay Social Security anymore than there is to continue subsidizing alfalfa farmers. Either program can be ended by a simple vote of Congress.
So, when we all speak of who doesn't pay federal taxes, we should all be honest and include the FICA payments taken from employees and employers.
- MM
Ronald Reagan Says: "Social Security, let's lay it to rest once and for all...Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. Social Security is totally funded by the payroll tax levied on employer and employee. If you reduce the outgo of Social Security, that money would not go into the general fund to reduce the deficit. It would go into the Social Security trust fund. So Social Security has nothing to do with balancing the budget or erasing or lowering the deficit."
Posted by dorky dorkman at December 7, 2012 12:39 PM- MM
Posted by Moderate Man at December 7, 2012 12:46 PMThere are 21.2 million government employees*
Add it up: that's 87.2 MILLION supported by tax dollars.
There are only 109.3 million Americans workers in the private sector.*
As Bill O'Reilly says, "Do the MATH"
*The source (as shown in the video) is the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare
Connect to dots to raising taxes on YOU.
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 12:48 PMThrowing the government employees in with welfare recipients is like sayingt that you get no value for your tax dollar from a government employee. I don't think that you really think that you can make a government function without workers. Also, a lot of welfare recipients (foodstamps) also work and pay taxes. They are not just a drain.
Plus -- There is the multiplier effect that welfare dollars spent have on the economy. Real workers produce the food that food stamp users purchase. It's far more complex than your noxious little rants take into consideration.
Posted by doeky dorkman at December 7, 2012 01:08 PMDo you need help packing for your move to Galt's Gulch?
Or maybe you've decided to remain living in the state of Liberal Paradise; the state that has elected Sen Patty Murray by wide margins 4 times and shall continue to do so until she dies?
Moderate Man - You are right, of course, that tax cuts can be good at some times and bad at others.
But I am not absolutely sure that Senator Murray is good at figuring out when we need tax cuts, and when we don't.
I'm not saying they have no value, I am saying we are PAYING for them just as we are the welfare recipients. If your were doing a balance sheet, it would go under the heading of EXPENDITURES.
What happens when we equal or pass the number of those paying into the system with EXPENDITURES?
Just today we learned 73% of New Jobs Created in Last 5 Months Are in Government...
The cumulative taxes those employees pay doesn't come close to the cost of employing them. The difference has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is the private sector.
We have a president who refuses to even consider cutting government, who refuses to consider cutting entitlements.
What happens when we equal or pass the number of those paying into the system with EXPENDITURES?
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 01:15 PMHere's What's Really Happened To The Private Sector Under Obama
See I can play the link to articles game too.
SIX month old article vs FACTS from today.
Hmmm, I seem to remember you loud lefty's mocking old articles in the past.
And let's look at those jobs? Are they high paying career jobs or minimum wage "I'll take anything' jobs?
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 01:42 PM... ... and to think that the US debt had just topped $15 TRILLION at the start of the Democratic National Convention on September 4th, 2012!
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 01:43 PMDo we need more private sector jobs? Heck yes. We need more jobs period, which is why Congress should be talking a stimulus and not austerity.
The problem is the GOP is stuck in 1980's thinking and everything is a nail (solution hammer) approach. They don't recognize the root cause of the Great Recession. They keep saying government has a "spending" problem. What we need is a "SMALL" stimulus to jumpstart the private sector. Instead they are talking about cutting government spending, which will put more on the unemployment rolls. There is a time and place to cut spending (and taxes). Remember the stimulus package that Obama did get passed that the GOP fought against was majority of tax cuts, which did increase the deficit, just like the Bush tax cuts contributed to the current deficit.
Congress should keep in place the tax cuts for the middle class, let the upper rates expire (it won't effect job creation -- the GOP is lying, small businesses individual who profit $250K a year are not the norm), and look at a small public works bill (roads and bridges). They should then look at reforming the overall tax structure by end of 2013 looking at capping deductions and lowering overall rates and look at streamlining government agencies and eliminating both defense and non-defense government work that is no longer necessary (there is still plenty of it).
Instead the GOP hold to their tax religion and its guru Norquist and the ideologues that think all government spending is bad. This isn't the 1980's GOP, wake up. This is a different time that requires a solution for today, not the 1980's.
Posted by tc at December 7, 2012 02:35 PMFarm Income
Yield per acre of corn (Iowa) = 187 bushels * 737.25 cents per bushel = $1,379/acre GROSS Revenue (Still need to take out expenses for raising corn like gas to run tractors and combine, fertilizer, and equipment depreciation)
Soybeans yield per acre (Iowa) = 52 bushels * 1472.25 cents per bushel = $766 GROSS Revenue (again have to deduct cost to grow the soybeans)
Get real GOP and focus on the 98%.
Posted by tc at December 7, 2012 03:34 PMIt' may be a difficult fact for the GOP to accept, but its a fact and it's incumbent on them (Boehner, et.al.) to do something about the messaging or risk being perceived as being to blame.
My suggestion - Let the tax rates increase - if they don't like i or are afraid of repurcussions, then vote present. Then come back and negotiate spending cuts, entitlement reform and the debt ceiling. By dong this, they would improve politically which will overshadow a policy letdown.
The GOP messaging needs a lot of work. I have to side with tc on the tax part, except that spending cuts for the upcoming year must be 4X the revenue increase. The debt ceiling and entitlement reform will have to be part of the next series of negotiations.
Posted by KDS at December 7, 2012 05:16 PMUnemployment Plunges to 3.8% for Gov't Workers; Adds 544,000 Jobs Since July
Fiscal cliff? Don't tell the big government spenders
One of the infuriating aspects of the current fiscal crisis is that, in countless ways large and small, very few people in Washington behave as if there is a fiscal crisis. The bureaucracy is living high. Money is routinely wasted on the most lavish expenditures. The nation's capital has become the richest city in America. The number of high-level officials has exploded, and each of them has accumulated a massive retinue of staffers and assistants. President Obama is conspicuously disinterested in doing any belt-tightening, in either his official duties or recreational activities. The lifestyle of the First Family is more appropriate to French royalty of old than the management team of a bankrupt nation teetering on the edge of a "fiscal cliff."
Track Wasteful Spending? There's an App for That
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 05:25 PMSo, I got this email today from my cousin who still lives in oh so sadly liberal Cleveland. It cracked me up: I love Christmas lights. They remind me of the people who voted for Obama.
They all hang together; half of the little bastards don't work; and the ones that do aren't that bright
Back to the failing economy ... Don't worry, I tie it all together... sort of ... except for the outrages, and hysterical outrages at the end
Chimneys Weep: Obama Economy Sacks Santa
President Barack Obama's economy is even putting Santa Claus out of work.
Even though the unemployment rate in November dropped to 7.7%, Santa Clauses, once thought to be recession-proof, are having a more difficult time finding employment this holiday season.
ObamaNomics: Black Teen Unemployment at 39.4%
Liberals Are STOKED About Job Numbers, Y'all. So Let's Talk About Them, Shall We?
Phony cheer in unemployment numbers
The jobless rate dropped in large part because the labor force fell by 350,000, suggesting that people gave up looking for work. The number of people saying they had a job actually fell by 122,000. And the Labor Department revised downward its estimates of job creation in September and October by a combined 49,000.
Obama Curve: Media Celebrate Meager Job Growth, 540K Dropping Out of Workforce
Unemployment rate falls; number of unemployed stays the same
Ten Reasons Why November's Jobs Report Is Dismal
Small-Business Hiring Intent Plummets To Four-Year Low
Lib Radio Host: It's Racist To Criticize Job Growth Under Obama
OUTRAGE:
It Begins... Obama's Ministry Of Truth Replacing Great Literature With Propaganda In The Classroom
To qualify for federal grant funds, Obama is requiring states to adopt a new program called Common Core State Standards In English. The program would wipe great works of literature from English curriculums across the country. And replace them with "information text", such as "Executive Order 13423: Strengthening Federal Environmental, Energy, and Transportation Management", an Order, of course, favorable to the Liberal environmentalist movement.
Hysterical OUTRAGE:
"Choom Gang" alumnus thinking of overriding states that legalized marijuana use
Baffling, but leave it to O to pursue terrible big-government policies even in a rare case where his base would prefer a lighter federal touch.
Congress says marijuana is dangerous and illegal, voters in Washington and Colorado say it isn't. What's a recently reelected pothead-turned-POTUS (who won both states) to do?
Sad OUTRAGE
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 05:47 PMCBO reported that federal revenues rose by $30 billion - a 10 percent increase over last year, but spending increased more, going up by $87 billion or 16 percent.
Per day.
So far.
Complete Insanity.
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 7, 2012 07:57 PM
"But with Medicare and Social Security facing unfunded long-term liabilities of $42.8 trillion and $20.5 trillion, respectively, they need to move much further in the direction feared by Ellison and Richtman. As Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute observed last year in National Affairs, "It is inevitable that Social Security, Medicare, and other government programs will become less generous toward the rich than they are today."
If progressives are having trouble adjusting to this reality, it is not only because they (mistakenly) believe means testing will jeopardize these programs. As William Voegeli observes in his 2005 book Never Enough: America's Limitless Welfare State, progressives' counterintuitive resistance to means testing also stems from a communitarian vision that sees universal participation in tax-funded social services as inherently good.
Voegeli quotes Robert Kuttner, co-editor of The American Prospect, who in his 1987 book The Life of the Party argued that "there is immense civic value to treating middle-class and poor people alike." According to Kuttner, "a common social security program, or medical care program, or public school program" fosters "social solidarity." (social justice)
The above demonstrates that the leftist/regressives are not only paranoid about means testing and any reduction in entitlements, but void of common sense and any concern about cutting spending. No longer should it be a mystery. This is who the leftists are - caught up in their leftism religion. Negotiating with them about cuts in entitlements will be like negotiating with terrorists - mark these words.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/why_lefties_back_welfare_for_the_iI4UO6jPVfOfSauO9GBSCM
Posted by KDS at December 8, 2012 08:13 AMRight now, middle-class tax cuts are set to expire at the end of the year. Time is running out. And there are two things that can happen.First, if Congress does nothing, every family in America will see their income taxes automatically go up on January 1st. A typical middle-class family of four would get a $2,200 tax hike. That would be bad for families, it would be bad for businesses, and it would drag down our entire economy.
Now, Congress can avoid all this by passing a law that prevents a tax hike on the first $250,000 of everybody's income. That means 98 percent of Americans and 97 percent of small businesses wouldn't see their income taxes go up by a single dime. Even the wealthiest Americans would get a tax cut on the first $250,000 of their income. And families everywhere would enjoy some peace of mind.
The Senate has already done their part. Now we're just waiting for Republicans in the House to do the same thing.
A note to our Republican supporters in the (un)SP peanut gallery, when your taxes go up because the congressional Republicans are more interested in politics than doing the right thing, be sure to send them a thank-you note. And you'll want to start with (un)SP occasional front pager and Washington Congress woman, and Chairwoman of the House Republican Conference (caucus), Cathy McMorris-Rodgers.
Study: Fox 'News' viewers have an IQ that's 20 points lower than the U.S. National average
Unfortunately the study does not tell us if you can get better if you stop imbibing that bull.
At least let's hope you can learn to not bark at vacuum cleaners.
Pretty damn, funny. It works on gullible people though.
A note to our Republican supporters in the (un)SP peanut gallery, when your taxes go up because the congressional Republicans are more interested in politics than doing the right thing, be sure to send them a thank-you note. And you'll want to start with (un)SP occasional front pager and Washington Congress woman, and Chairwoman of the House Republican Conference (caucus), Cathy McMorris-Rodgers.
Posted by MikeBoyScout at December 8, 2012 10:38 AM
The end game of the Democrats is to increase taxes on everyone to fund their welfare as Howard Dean stated earlier this week on MSNBC, for food stamps and further entitlements. It is unsustainable, but that doesn't stop Obama and the Demoncats from doing this. When the GOP negotiates with them about entitlement reform and future spending cuts, they might as well negotiate with Iran or Al-Qaeda.
Everyone, don't forget to send thank you notes to Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell to thank them for their steadfastness to ensuring that the economy of Greece can be achieved sooner than you think !
Posted by KDS at December 8, 2012 11:43 AMSurely you're not one of those low IQ 'conservatives'!
So, show us how your hypothetical "end game of the Democrats is to increase taxes on everyone" would work.
And start with the Democrat's position to extend the Middle Class Tax Cut passing and then take us to the "end game" tax increase.
Feel yourself free to use "Obama Hypnotic Mind Control" in your explanation. (Maybe that is why the President and the Democrats have been calling for extending a tax CUT since August but really are going to raise your taxes via ????)
If you can't, we'll understand. Scientific studies show us 'conservatives' aren't too bright.
"And start with the Democrat's position to extend the Middle Class Tax Cut passing and then take us to the "end game" tax increase."
You are gullible or lieing if you believe that is the way it will end up after the next midterm elections if not before. Obviously, you believe Obama's soundbyte, which has a shelf life of
Feel yourself free to use "Obama Hypnotic Mind Control" in your explanation. (Maybe that is why the President and the Democrats have been calling for extending a tax CUT since August but really are going to raise your taxes via ????"
It is the Bush Tax cut and that's true. What you are ignorant about is after the spending cuts and entitlement reforms and raising the debt ceiling come into play, that will change Obama's rhetoric after the dust has settled. More tax increases will be necessary to pay for Obamacare (there will be tax increases for all from it and they are masked as a tax increase - noone talks about Obamacare taxes) and for continued expansion of welfare and entitlement programs. If they don't ask for revenue increases from everyone besides the wealthy, Greece will be upon us by 2015 - do the math ! Even as economically illiterate as Democrats are, they will see that Howard Dean is correct and increasing taxes for all must be done to move forward with the statist/regressivist agenda.
Instead of blathering away and speculating and flatulating, I'll close this discussion and move that this discussion be continued in June 2013.
Posted by KDS at December 8, 2012 12:34 PMMerry Christmas to all
Posted by RagnarDanneskold at December 8, 2012 02:38 PMFirst, you have my condolences for being a low IQ 'conservative'. It must be difficult.
Second, all six of our Washington Democrat Congressional representatives have signed a discharge petition calling for a vote on the bill to extend the Middle Class Tax Cut.
Not only have none of Washington's Republican Congressional representatives signed it, Washington's own Cathy McMorris-Rodgers, Chairwoman of the House Republican Conference, is continuing to work to keep it from coming to a vote.
You have a fixation on Cathy McMorris-Rodgers she is your red herring. Boehner is the one who makes the ultimate decision about bringing this to a vote. She is only a committee chair. Whatever, dude.
Sorry to hear about your husband, Rags - I hope it works out.
Posted by KDS at December 9, 2012 03:51 PMI wonder what Sen Murray thinks about this?
Posted by Dengle at December 11, 2012 10:39 PMThe only answer that is plausible is because he DOES NOT CARE about reducing the deficit, restoring our credit rating and shows his preference to making us a dependent society to benefit his self-centered legacy. This is something you'll never hear on NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and the urban mainstream media outlets. The Daily Show and the Colbert Report will not bring it up either.
All thee giant monetary drains we're started/created under Dubya. Let's not forget the giant economic collapse created by Dubya during his term than put the country on the brink of fiscal collapse in 2008.
Time for the GOP to compromise and learn that we need more revenue to fix the huge gaping budget hole that their dear leader (he who is no longer shown or mentioned at GOP Conventions) created during his 8 long and unfruitful years in office.
Posted by Cato at December 12, 2012 10:42 AMIf Obama specifies additional spending cuts and agrees in principle to significant cuts, then they should cave part way on taxes increase to 37.5%, then increase the tax rates for those making over $5M to 44% (like Warren Buffett - who says he wants to pay more, but so far he has shown no evidence of really wanting to).
Better to wait until after New Year and let the new congress take this up and pass something under duress like Boehner most likely would and hopefully with a new Speaker. Boehner needs to be replaced by someone articulate who will go toe to toe with Mr. Obama. The new speaker can be from outside of the House, according to the Constitution. I'd nominate Rand Paul, Scott Walker or Ron Johnson. What Obama calls balanced approach is garbage and truth be told, he has no desire to cut spending.
Posted by KDS at December 12, 2012 04:56 PMIf Obama specifies additional spending cuts and agrees in principle to significant cuts, then they should cave part way on taxes increase to 37.5%, then increase the tax rates for those making over $5M to 44% (like Warren Buffett - who says he wants to pay more, but so far he has shown no evidence of really wanting to).
Better to wait until after New Year and let the new congress take this up and not pass something under duress like Boehner most likely would and hopefully with a new Speaker. Boehner needs to be replaced by someone articulate who will go toe to toe with Mr. Obama. The new speaker can be from outside of the House, according to the Constitution. I'd nominate Rand Paul, Scott Walker or Ron Johnson. What Obama calls balanced approach is garbage and truth be told, he has no desire to cut spending.
Posted by KDS at December 12, 2012 04:56 PMA woman has a "right" to change her mind!
And sadly she does fit the bill, I think?
Posted by Bo Bo the Rag Man at December 13, 2012 03:07 PMI seem to recall Gov. Romney would flip-flop all over the campaign trail like a fish out of water. He was so slippery no one could hold him down long enough to get a position.
Posted by Cato at December 13, 2012 05:07 PMObama flip flopped even moreso, but it was really a LIE and making a statement that had a limited shelf life. It is what it is and you get the Government you deserve - All who did not vote for him do not deserve this kind of banana republic administration - you and your ilk do !! Sore loser - ya betcha !!
Typical GOP response to problems of the day:
Unemployed, get a job / Need health care but have a pre-existing condition, too bad / Been raped and want an abortion, you should have insisted your attacker to use a condom / Want to buy that 3rd vacation home on a golf course, let's give you a tax break.
