Comment on Entry: FRIGHTENING: Court outlaws local advisory votes -- even expressing an opinion is illegal now, authored by Tim Eyman
1. What's the problem? Just shoot them out.

Posted by ivan at February 26, 2013 08:05 AM
2. Ivan: You are so infantile! Nobody wants to "shoot anyone out" except maybe you.

Posted by katomar at February 26, 2013 08:56 AM
3. And by way of clarification, I mean maybe you are the one who wants to "shoot" someone, since that was your immediate response.

Posted by katomsar at February 26, 2013 08:58 AM
4. My dear Katomar:

There are remedial reading classes widely available for adults, even for retarded adults. I wasn't suggesting shooting anyONE, but the red light cameras. What's a little civil disobedience, when our liberties are at stake?

Posted by ivan at February 26, 2013 09:10 AM
5. Ivan: Perhaps your reading comprehension could use some work too! The subject was not red light cameras per se, but the legal right to use the initiative process in the state of Washington.

Posted by katomar at February 26, 2013 10:43 AM
6. I wasn't suggesting shooting anyONE, but the red light cameras. What's a little civil disobedience, when our liberties are at stake?

Posted by ivan at February 26, 2013 09:10 AM

Your Democrat party are the ones who predominantly back up the red light cameras - as they comprise a majority of those city councils. You are sounding like a conservative or maybe you just had a senior moment.

Posted by KDS at February 26, 2013 11:17 AM
7. Tim, don't you get the irony here? In 2006 a judge blocked an initiative that declared "Tim Eyman is a Horse's Ass". The reason: it was "outside the power given the people".

You are wrong to say "it is illegal for citizens to even express an opinion on certain issues". Citizens just can't use the initiative process to express opinions, because our constitution intends the initiative process to be for making laws (according to the people charged with interpreting the consitution) -- RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: the Monroe initiative created a law that required advisory votes on cameras.

Similarly, my cat can't run for president, even if he gets enough signatures to qualify for the ballot. The presidential election isn't intended to let us express our opinions about cats, and the initiative process isn't intended to let us express our opinions about things we don't get to vote on.

Your new initiative, I-517, seems unconstitutional to me;
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: local initiatives are subject to state law, not the state Constitution and I-517 creates a state law that allows voters to vote on local initiatives that collect the required number of signatures in the required amount of time.

if you want to change the constitution, you need to pass a constitutional amendment, not a law. But of course a law is easier, and even if it has no effect, it still keeps you employed for a while. Anyway, I can see the attraction of creating a class of initiatives that let the people express non-binding opinions. But it's an awfully expensive way to run a democracy.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: local initiatives are very rare so we're not talking about a vote on everything just on those issues where the local citizenry collects the required number of signatures in the required amount of time as required by current law.

People already get to vote for elected officials, write letters, make phone calls, send emails, write blogs, etc. And their views on major issues are pretty well known through polls. Forcing taxpayers to pay for votes on non-binding opinions, especially in a time of economic challenge, seems like an inefficient way to run society.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: interesting that for some being fiscally frugal is limiting the people's right to vote on initiatives; excessive government spending? that's totally fine.

It's ironic that you, who claims to want a smaller, more efficient government, would want to allow this new category of expense. Then again, initiatives are your livelihood.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: initiatives are very strongly supported by the people and we hope they recognize the assault that it's under right now by the vagueness of current law with regard to local initiatives and will welcome the chance to create a clear state law that requires a vote on initiatives that collect the required number of signatures in the required amount of time

Posted by Bruce at February 26, 2013 11:31 AM
8. KDS @ 6:

Opposition to the surveillance state is not a partisan issue, and nothing you say or think or feel will make it one. Large segments of both parties come down on both sides of this issue. Some of the most liberal and the most conservative members of the House in Olympia have teamed up on a bill that would restrict spy cameras severely.

Posted by ivan at February 26, 2013 01:53 PM
9. "PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE ON INITIATIVES"

Yes, otherwise known as the "Horse's Ass" initiative. Maybe we can finally put that one to a vote.

Posted by Doctor Steve at February 26, 2013 02:12 PM
10. Tim, regarding the responses that you inserted in my comment #7:

I will assume you're right that local initiatives are defined in state law rather than the state constitution. In that case, your proposed I-517 would be constitutional. I still think it's a dumb use of public funds to hold an initiative just to get a nonbinding opinion from the voters.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: the vote will be taken on a qualified initiative and it will be binding (just like a state initiative) unless opponents choose to challenge it in court and convince a judge the initiative was illegal.

You say "initiatives are very strongly supported by the people" but I doubt that voters very strongly support an initiative that doesn't actually accomplish what it says it will accomplish. If the initiative were worded to say it's a nonbinding opinion, at least it would be honest.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: I-517 allows votes on qualified initiatives (see above) -- it's what it does.

Of course no one likes "excessive government spending". People just don't agree on what is excessive. Anyway, how does wasting money on expensive nonbinding opinion polls solve excessive government spending?
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: the point is some people, maybe you're not one of them, only seem to complain about the costs of people voting rather than government spending. The cost of letting the people vote in miniscule when weighed against the benefit of the people having the right to vote on local initiatives on issues that local citizens care enough about to collect the required number of signatures in the required amount of time.

Posted by Bruce at February 26, 2013 02:24 PM
11. Geez, Tim, if you can't interpret a court decision then hire someone who can. You make it sound like this decision restricts free speech. It doesn't. It's nothing more than a statutory interpretation of an RCW that, according to the court, delegates authority to set up red-light cameras to municipalities in a manner that preempts local initiatives. All the court said is the initiative is invalid. They didn't take away your soapbox. You can still rail against red-light cameras all you want to! You also have the option of trying to change the state law by initiative.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: changing state law is exactly what I-517 does. It creates a state law that clearly allows the people to vote on local initiatives that collect the required number of signatures in the required amount of time.

interestingly, local initiatives are twice as difficult -- state initiatives require 8% of active voters to qualify, local initiatives require 15%+. if a local initiative qualifies, it's because ALOT of local citizens care about that issue and deserve a vote on it (again, if it qualifies).

Posted by Roger Rabbit at February 26, 2013 02:45 PM
12. .
How about an initiative renaming the 520 bridge to the
Tim Eyman Toll Bridge?

Posted by MikeBoyScout at February 26, 2013 07:54 PM
13. @11 That's fine, Tim, and I might even vote for it. But this court decision did NOT make expressing an opinion illegal. It said nothing more than a local initiative can't overrule a municipal legislative body on this specific issue.

Posted by Roger Rabbit at February 26, 2013 07:58 PM
14. How about an initiative renaming the 520 bridge to the Tim Eyman Toll Bridge?
Posted by MikeBoyScout at February 26, 2013 07:54 PM

Why ? That makes absolutely no sense.

Posted by KDS at February 26, 2013 09:16 PM
15. First off, I am neutral on the new initiative Tim mentions. I am not sure it is needed, but also not sure what harm it may do, also. I will give this one time to digest. <Opinion>Most likely, though, since Tim's name is attached, I will be voting no, even if it is a good idea. Tim, you have blown your credibility (at least with me) regarding initiatives and by having your name attached may cause people to vote against initiatives whether they are good ideas or not. </Opinion>

Second, I do not like the trend Tim is setting regarding comments, where he in-lines the response. It is hard to determine for sure which are responses and which are original text. I think it is better, Tim, to have a separate comment back and quote the original text your are referring to. Also, you can use the <i>italics</i> HTML tag to set off quoted material.

Posted by tc at February 27, 2013 10:29 AM
16. I don't believe this restriction of posting on topics is helping this blog. lo siento mucho! :(

Posted by Duffman at February 27, 2013 11:30 AM
17. Tim@10 writes: "The cost of letting the people vote in miniscule when weighed against the benefit of the people having the right to vote on local initiatives on issues that local citizens care enough about to collect the required number of signatures in the required amount of time."

What precisely is that benefit -- which you claim is much greater than the substantial public cost -- if we already know that the initiative will not do what it says it will do (e.g., ban red-light cameras)?
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: in the cities we did initiatives, we forced a vote and in those cities, officials got the message and got rid of them (Bellingham, Longview, Mukilteo, Redmond, and Monroe in July). The benefit of the vote is the people's voice is heard and officials ignore that vote at their own electoral peril.

Posted by Bruce at February 27, 2013 11:33 AM
18. The only thing frightening is that anyone is expecting Puget Sound leadership to solve problems or offer any real value beyond enriching their own coffers. It iss hard to name any big spend that has been a real success or moved the needle on any major issue facing Puget Sound.

For example, I-5 traffic is pretty much the same as it has always been despite billions spent on new interchanges, light rail and those fancy connected LED speed limit signs. The new 18 flyover to I-5 South backs up almost as bad as it ever did when it was a cloverleaf, although does improve Southbound I-5 slightly, only to come to a standstill again in Fife because lane cutoffs are the ultimate issue, just like Northbound as one approaches downtown Seattle. Funnels do not work. And Northbound, the I-5 off ramp to 18 has not changed, and backs up like it always has. Millions spent for little change.

And it goes like this with nearly everything. On a positive note, the new Nalley Valley crossing Westbound and flyover does appear to have removed most of the backup on I-5 South, and alleviated it a little going North, but it still backs up to 56th or so often. And it is much safer now.

About the only really good project that really moved the needle was creating a new Tacoma Narrows second span. That eliminated that bottle neck entirely. But that is being funded by actual users of the bridge, as opposed to the entire light rail disaster which has done nearly nothing to alleviate traffic or improve anything, but that we all pay for regardless of whether we use it or even know anyone who uses it.

Just keep voting Democrat for more billions spent for almost immeasurable gains.

Posted by Leftover at February 27, 2013 12:32 PM
19. Most likely, though, since Tim's name is attached, I will be voting no [on the initiative], even if it is a good idea.~ tc

Way to put those critical thinking skills to use, tc. You're almost living up to Pres. Obama's standards of how to run gov't.
i.e., focus on being the problem and not part of the solution.

Posted by Rick D. at February 27, 2013 11:10 PM
20. Suck it, Eyman! And suck it, the rest of you Tea Party droolers. The Supreme Court just handed you your ass.

Posted by ivan at February 28, 2013 09:30 AM
21. Ivan, be nice. Now Tim will probably try to make the change the constitutional way, via an amendment, and he may succeed -- who likes taxes? And an amendment would be harder to change or override than a law.

Anyway, it's all good for Tim. If the 520 bridge builders make a mistake, they rightfully get pilloried, but if Eyman makes a mistake, he gets paid to do the job a second time, because his funders will do anything to keep their taxes low.

Posted by Bruce at February 28, 2013 11:02 AM
22. No Constitutional amendment will get a 2/3 vote in either house, and Inslee is not the gutless Gary Locke; he wouldn't sign it.
RESPONSE FROM EYMAN: constitutional amendments don't require a governor's signature, it's just the legislature and the voters that must approve it.

The right-wing morons who infest this blog need to understand two things. (1) There is no free lunch. You want good schools, good roads, good bridges, a good infrastructure that helps businesses to operate and prosper and create jobs, and a social safety net that treats people like human beings, pay for it, or get the hell out of here. (2) Eyman knew this was unconstitutional, and he did it anyway to make money. In other words, he took all you retards for a ride, and he'll do it again, if you're dumb enough to let him. I'm betting that you are, and that he will.

Posted by ivan at February 28, 2013 01:55 PM
23. Go suck on a lemon, Ivan. Repeat your tirade to your statist emperor Nero on Steroids Obama. He does not care about decreasing our deficit nor improving infrastructure and no it is not all the Republicans fault - maybe part, the Democrats get more blame because they control 2/3 of the Exec and Legislative branch. He is all about demagoguery and bulls**t with no solutions that will help the common people.

You are dead wrong - there are too damn many free lunches in the form of Food Stamps, Disability from this corrupt tail wagging the dog White House. Your party is running this country into the ground !

Eyman was off the rails here as he goes periodically, but that is very small potatoes compared to what is happening in our Federal Government. Try taking your head out of the sand for a change and pay attention to the real picture, instead of your alternate universe, then maybe there can be a dialogue - when pigs fly ?

Posted by KDS at February 28, 2013 09:41 PM
24. Micks hiding under the blessed Margarets skirt ! He still says though " yooose are aw still cheats " ...... Mick only joking mate ! But on a serious note there is still time to save yourself ... do it Mick go on , go on , come over to the enlightened side , leave the dark side Mick , come on , don't listen to them look at the myths , half truths and fairytales they have told you , Mick there's still time ... save yourself Mick .... before it's too late .

Posted by Legal Site at March 1, 2013 03:09 AM
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